princed.org (Wiki)

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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by crem »

Could I have a wiki account please?
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by Norbert »

crem wrote: December 11th, 2020, 1:04 pm Could I have a wiki account please?
What would you like to be added or modified on the Princed wiki?
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by crem »

Norbert wrote: December 11th, 2020, 2:29 pm
crem wrote: December 11th, 2020, 1:04 pm Could I have a wiki account please?
What would you like to be added or modified on the Princed wiki?
I noticed a typo and would like to have it fixed.
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by Norbert »

crem wrote: December 13th, 2020, 10:16 pmI noticed a typo and would like to have it fixed.
You can let me/us know here (or via private message), and I'll fix the typo.
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by crem »

Norbert wrote: December 14th, 2020, 1:32 pm You can let me/us know here (or via private message), and I'll fix the typo.
Just to close this conversation,

Actually, recently I was trying to help the PoP speedrunning community to discover/investigate some of glitches. During that I had to dig a few aspects of PoP and SDLPoP, and I thought it would be nice to document the findings so that later someone else can use them without wasting time redoing the stuff. What I wanted to document is:
  • Frame transition graph for kid and guards (useful to know frame-by-frame x coordinate of sprites and "center of mass" point).
  • Table of X coordinate displacement for every kid's action (step, jump, crouch). Useful when want to position yourself at exact location.
  • Guard fight algorithm description (not just a table of probabilities, but also at which frames those probabilities are checked).
  • Findings about timers in DOS version of PoP (why games runs slower and looks a bit less responsive when playing with PC Speaker sound). Also that fact that the game runs at 10fps instead of 12fps during fights turned out not to be a common knowlege.
  • SDLPoP quicksave and replay file format. (the easiest way to reproduce/try ideas I found was generating SDLPoP quicksave)
  • Detailed description for some of the glitches (why exactly they happen and what has to be done to reproduce them).
  • And yeah, I found a mistype.
So I found that wiki and decided it's a good place to document the findings. Then the quest to do so has started:
  1. Ok, anonymous edits are not allowed, let's register then.
  2. Registration is closed, I have to ask for that in a forum, alright, let's do that.
  3. Forum registration is also closed, I have to write an email to get the code.
  4. I got the code and registered.
  5. Asked in a forum to let me edit the wiki, as suggested in item 2.
  6. Requested to explain what I want to edit. Here I just gave up and lost all the enthusiasm.
I understand that the intention is to fight spammers, but:
  • It's fine to clean up one spammer manually every few months or so (if you set up Google recaptcha v2, you won't get more), than losing people who want to contribute (I gave up at step 6, but most of the people would actually stop at 1 or 2). MediaWiki offers a very easy way to rollback all edits and restrict an account if a user turns out to be malicious.
  • If a person already reached step 5 above, it must be a very determinate spammer. At this point it's just distrust to other users, not spam protection.
This community is just closed for new members, and it should not be like that. I understand that your argument probably would be "those who really want to be a part of a community, have a way to do so". The issue with that is that in the beginning people don't "really" want that, new members usually start slight. For example for me, PoP is not my hobby, it's was just a sporadic spark of interest for a few evenings. It's very possible that those 6 wiki articles would be my only contribution, but it would be great even if someone without any interest in PoP at all just fixed one mistype, it's also a useful contribution.

So all in all, I'd suggest to make contributing easier. Open registration in forum and wiki. Allowing new members in is vital for community to thrive, even at the cost of having to clean up spammer manually once per few months (and I doubt if would be more than that with recaptcha).
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by Norbert »

crem wrote: December 24th, 2020, 12:31 pmRequested to explain what I want to edit. Here I just gave up and lost all the enthusiasm.
Hi crem. I somewhat understand what you are saying, but try to also see it from my perspective. You're a complete stranger, and your first post does not include a greeting or explanation of intentions, just a wiki account request. Then your second post indicates you created a forum account and want a wiki account to change... just a typo. If you would've posted "Hi everyone, I'd like to document some (SDL)PoP findings; can I get a wiki account?" probably you would've had one by now. I'll create a wiki account for you, and will PM/email you the credentials. [Edit: Sent via PM.]
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by atrueprincefanfrom18 »

crem wrote: December 24th, 2020, 12:31 pm I understand that the intention is to fight spammers
We've had reCAPTCHA in the past and many of the spammers. If you take a look here, most of the users (who have 0 posts) are fake and created by automated means. If you go through this long thread, you will get to know what the history of the forum (regarding the spam) is and why it's a bit hard to sign-up.
crem wrote: December 24th, 2020, 12:31 pm If a person already reached step 5 above, it must be a very determinate spammer. At this point it's just distrust to other users, not spam protection.
[...]
So all in all, I'd suggest to make contributing easier. Open registration in forum and wiki. Allowing new members in is vital for community to thrive, even at the cost of having to clean up spammer manually once per few months (and I doubt if would be more than that with recaptcha).
And yes, I somewhat agree to this fact. Norbert, any idea what we can do on this?
Norbert wrote: December 24th, 2020, 2:12 pm You're a complete stranger, and your first post does not include a greeting or explanation of intentions
Also, is it possible, that after sign-up the forum guides the user on what he should be doing next? For example, introducing yourself here or if you want to try out new DOS mods, visit this or something like that. How does that sound?
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by Norbert »

atrueprincefanfrom18 wrote: December 24th, 2020, 2:50 pmNorbert, any idea what we can do on this?
It's complicated. As soon as we're more lenient, spam (accounts) is (are) being created. I think it's currently not too bad. Few people will (immediately) be interested in contributing to the wiki, so they only have one registration process to go through. Maybe Falcury has additional thoughts.
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by Falcury »

crem wrote: December 24th, 2020, 12:31 pm Here I just gave up and lost all the enthusiasm.
...
This community is just closed for new members, and it should not be like that. I understand that your argument probably would be "those who really want to be a part of a community, have a way to do so". The issue with that is that in the beginning people don't "really" want that, new members usually start slight. For example for me, PoP is not my hobby, it's was just a sporadic spark of interest for a few evenings. It's very possible that those 6 wiki articles would be my only contribution, but it would be great even if someone without any interest in PoP at all just fixed one mistype, it's also a useful contribution.
I'm sorry that you had a bad experience. You are right, the current set-up is not very accessible for new members.

I see that Norbert created an account for you on the wiki. (Thank you!)
Norbert wrote: December 24th, 2020, 2:12 pm You're a complete stranger, and your first post does not include a greeting or explanation of intentions
In principle, because I am currently e-mailing the people who want to make a new account at the forum, as soon as they make an account it means I already 'approved' them (well, actually, it means that I thought they were unlikely to be a spammer, I am not trying to turn anyone away). Although it would of course be possible that the account creation password leaked, or I made a wrong estimation and let a spammer through.
It would be good if I would more actively welcome and help the new members on the forum myself, especially since I already know them from the e-mail. But this has been somewhat hard for me to do lately. My apologies for this.
crem wrote: December 24th, 2020, 12:31 pm So all in all, I'd suggest to make contributing easier. Open registration in forum and wiki. Allowing new members in is vital for community to thrive, even at the cost of having to clean up spammer manually once per few months (and I doubt if would be more than that with recaptcha).
Norbert wrote: December 24th, 2020, 3:56 pm It's complicated. As soon as we're more lenient, spam (accounts) is (are) being created. I think it's currently not too bad. Few people will (immediately) be interested in contributing to the wiki, so they only have one registration process to go through. Maybe Falcury has additional thoughts.
atrueprincefanfrom18 wrote: December 24th, 2020, 2:50 pm Also, is it possible, that after sign-up the forum guides the user on what he should be doing next? For example, introducing yourself here or if you want to try out new DOS mods, visit this or something like that. How does that sound?

I can think of a few ways we could go:
  • We could open up wiki account creation for now, and make sure that we keep a good eye on what goes on at the wiki, and delete spam accounts as needed.
  • And maybe the same goes for the forum sign-up. We can open up new account creation at the cost of needing to do more policing for spam accounts. (atrueprincefanfrom18, maybe you would be willing to join the moderator/admin team, to make this manageable?)
  • Or, maybe it would be possible to 'obfuscate' the link for account creation on the wiki, and then give out the link to create a wiki account on the forum? That way, spammers will hopefully have a hard time finding the account creation page. But I don't know how practical this would be to do.
  • Or, we keep everything as is for now, but make it more transparent that existing members should be able to easily get a wiki account. I think probably it would not be necessary to be very strict in this. Spammers who want to spam the wiki probably would not know or want to go through the trouble of first joining the forum and asking for a wiki account. And then if turns out I am wrong about this we could change it and make it more strict.
What do you think?

For reference, a wiki account can be created on this page:
https://www.princed.org/wiki/Special:CreateAccount
This shows the account creation page, but only if you are already logged in with a valid account (I think this currently requires 'sysop' rights, but I am not sure - maybe everyone who already has an account should be allowed to create accounts for others?)
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by atrueprincefanfrom18 »

Falcury wrote: January 4th, 2021, 2:52 pm And maybe the same goes for the forum sign-up. We can open up new account creation at the cost of needing to do more policing for spam accounts. (atrueprincefanfrom18, maybe you would be willing to join the moderator/admin team, to make this manageable?)
Sure, would love to help! Let me know the further details.
Falcury wrote: January 4th, 2021, 2:52 pm We could open up wiki account creation for now, and make sure that we keep a good eye on what goes on at the wiki, and delete spam accounts as needed.
The admins/moderators have to do that to keep the community going. There definitely are lof of people willing to want to help, but as said by crem here:
crem wrote: December 24th, 2020, 12:31 pm So I found that wiki and decided it's a good place to document the findings. Then the quest to do so has started:
  1. Ok, anonymous edits are not allowed, let's register then.
  2. Registration is closed, I have to ask for that in a forum, alright, let's do that.
  3. Forum registration is also closed, I have to write an email to get the code.
  4. I got the code and registered.
  5. Asked in a forum to let me edit the wiki, as suggested in item 2.
  6. Requested to explain what I want to edit. Here I just gave up and lost all the enthusiasm.
people would lose enthusiasm and would not even care to look back at it. Hence, we lose people who were trying to help the community survive.
Falcury wrote: January 4th, 2021, 2:52 pm Although it would of course be possible that the account creation password leaked, or I made a wrong estimation and let a spammer through.
This is more likely possible, so it's actually just best that we keep it simple. It's the same thing. After all, if spammer have a great motivation to spam, he can cross all the limits, so why not keep it simple? Maybe we could look on implementing Google's reCAPTCHA, it assigns a score, so we can put it in the database and verify later if the user is a genuine one or a spammer.
Falcury wrote: January 4th, 2021, 2:52 pm Or, we keep everything as is for now, but make it more transparent that existing members should be able to easily get a wiki account. I think probably it would not be necessary to be very strict in this. Spammers who want to spam the wiki probably would not know or want to go through the trouble of first joining the forum and asking for a wiki account. And then if turns out I am wrong about this we could change it and make it more strict.
If we can revert to the previous versions, similar to GitHub, we can easily allow the registered users to do whatever they like. If the spammer somehow does something back, revert it to the previous correct version and block the account. We could also allow registered users to edit, if we can implement a review system. The user would edit whatever they want, and that has to be approved by the admin/moderator for the general public to see the changes. (Complicated?)
Falcury wrote: January 4th, 2021, 2:52 pm (I think this currently requires 'sysop' rights, but I am not sure - maybe everyone who already has an account should be allowed to create accounts for others?)
I can't see anything. That possibly means it requires sysop rights (and/or maybe some other rights).
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by Falcury »

I changed the forum signup countermeasure to reCAPTCHA v3.
Also see here:
viewtopic.php?p=31820#p31820

The wiki setting is unchanged for now.
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by Norbert »

I noticed that Lua errors are showing up.
For instance here:
https://www.princed.org/wiki/Apoplexy
It appears to be because all the templates are broken:
https://www.princed.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_software
https://www.princed.org/wiki/Template:Main_list
https://www.princed.org/wiki/Template:Fix
etc.
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by David »

Norbert wrote: December 21st, 2021, 8:30 pm I noticed that Lua errors are showing up.
For instance here:
https://www.princed.org/wiki/Apoplexy
I think exit code 127 means "command not found"?
That is, Lua is not installed on the server.

Every module displays that error.
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by Norbert »

David wrote: December 25th, 2021, 2:09 pm
Norbert wrote: December 21st, 2021, 8:30 pm I noticed that Lua errors are showing up.
For instance here:
https://www.princed.org/wiki/Apoplexy
I think exit code 127 means "command not found"?
That is, Lua is not installed on the server.

Every module displays that error.
Unfortunately, this is still a problem.
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Re: princed.org (Wiki)

Post by Norbert »

Norbert wrote: November 17th, 2022, 11:42 am
David wrote: December 25th, 2021, 2:09 pm
Norbert wrote: December 21st, 2021, 8:30 pm I noticed that Lua errors are showing up.
For instance here:
https://www.princed.org/wiki/Apoplexy
I think exit code 127 means "command not found"?
That is, Lua is not installed on the server.

Every module displays that error.
Unfortunately, this is still a problem.
Another half-a-year passed, and unfortunately it's still broken...
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