Prince of Persia

With fairly recent releases of, among other things, Pr1SnesLevEd, apoplexy, Total Pack, PR, CusPop, and various mods, and new mods (by yaqxsw and me, maybe others) and PoP2 support for apoplexy on the horizon, please join me in thinking about community (re-)building.

What can we do to bring in new members, give current members what they're looking for, and reinvigorate old Prince of Persia modders? We've had some great suggestions in the past related to community (re-)building. Some things worked, some didn't (yet). We're already reaching out via:
- https://twitter.com/popmodding (last post 2013-09-23)
- http://www.youtube.com/user/popmodding/videos (last post 2013-07-25)
- https://www.facebook.com/pages/Prince-o ... 2517387796 (last post 2013-09-23)
- http://www.princed.org/ (last post 2013-09-23)
- http://www.popot.org/ (last post 2013-11-23)
- http://www.popuw.com/ (last post 2012-08-12)

I think we're mostly settled when it comes to informing new/potential members about the community's history and its past releases. We do provide enough context. (Modding history video, modding timeline, various documents, clear overviews of tricks and mods, and so on.) We also have solid tools and docs for aspiring SNES and DOS modders. I also think there are sufficient ways for mod authors to get feedback. The forum, votes/comments on popot.org and via Total Pack.

What else can we do? Here are some suggestions. I'm just throwing various things out there. Please let me know what you think:
- Events may be useful for community (re-)building. We/I tried launching an event, a modding contest, but that didn't work out. Should another (type of) event be launched?
- Merge our community/forum with one centered around a similar game/modding?
- Annually give out one (or a handful of) award(s), maybe for most interesting level?
- Send out a (mini-)survey to both current and past members to ask how they found us, why they became members, what they are/were looking for and/or expect(ed) to find, and - if applicable - why they left?
- A biweekly (every two weeks) podcast to discuss PoP modding?
- A weekly video of someone playing a mod (or some levels) and commenting on it while playing?
- Send news about developments/releases to the/certain media; press releases?
- Publish interviews with mod authors or with well-known PoP people?
- Can we do anything multiplayer? Maybe something split screen, that two people start playing a new mod's level at the same time to race to the exit door? Maybe create a port of PoP that allows two players to cooperate? Anything multiplayer possible?
- Should we send out a newsletter, to allow those who wouldn't normally visit this forum to follow interesting developments?
- Do members feel a sense of belonging when they visit this forum; how can we improve this?
- Where are the people who may be interested in joining our community? Who are they; fans of old school PoP games, fans of PoP in general, fans of modding? Which websites/forums out there are related to what we do?
- Should we become members of other forums and post about PoP modding there? Which forums? Should we submit news to technology or gaming related websites about new releases (mods, tools)? Which websites?

Is any of the above worth pursuing?
Anything else that could - or needs to - be done?

In my view, our community is too specialized in a specific area in this case prince of persia.
What I mean is (I speak from experience) that the majority of people watching what we do not necessarily know what it is and even watching videos and tutorials that we have made certain person that just prefer to play ...

What should be done is to why not merge with a larger community that shares the same passion romhacking?

I think that another way for community (re-)building is benchmark similar web sites for classic games. I suggest a web site as follows.
http://www.sensiblesoccer.de

sensiblesoccer.de is known as the most active web site for Sensible World of Soccer game. For this site, I have provided the total pack and some utilities for SWOS fans.
http://www.sensiblesoccer.de/forum/inde ... ic=21669.0
http://www.sensiblesoccer.de/forum/inde ... ic=21289.0
http://www.sensiblesoccer.de/forum/inde ... ic=21583.0
http://www.sensiblesoccer.de/forum/inde ... pic=4199.0

Please check it out.

Norbert wrote:- Can we do anything multiplayer? Maybe something split screen, that two people start playing a new mod's level at the same time to race to the exit door? Maybe create a port of PoP that allows two players to cooperate? Anything multiplayer possible?

In my opinion, this may is the most interesting suggestion I mentioned.
It should be possible to give 2 players a new level at the same moment, and have them stream their DOSBox playing to, for example, Twitch.TV.
This would allow others to watch the 2 players trying to finish that new level and see who is first to enter the level exit door.
I think Open Broadcaster Software (OBS) can stream to Twitch.TV under Windows, and for Linux there are also options (like this).
I'm going to look into this stuff and see if something is possible.
Theoretically, this could be very interesting.

I've recently sent a letter to Mechner, both via e-mail (his website ask@ and c/o the PR director at Ubisoft) and via regular snail mail (c/o Ubisoft, France). The letter is attached to this post. Mechner rarely replies to people; as mk1995 put it: "Sure, his website has a contact formula, but good freakin' luck getting a reply." But, who knows, maybe he feels like writing back. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Currently, yaqxsw and I are basically playing each other's mods, with nobody else in sight. (SNES mods a similar situation.) There aren't enough people on this forum to make making mods worth the effort. I don't even think anyone has tried any Prince of Wateria levels. And while I understand that yaqxsw likes all his videos to have that distinct red caped prince and the original tiles, the question is how many people will actually see the work I put into Micro Palace. Whether anyone here tried apoplexy 2.0, I don't know.

I didn't mention Pr1SnesLevEd or Total Pack in my letter because those aren't cross-platform applications, plus Total Pack isn't FOSS. RoomShaker(2) isn't under active development, is not cross-platform, is closed-source, and so on. CusPop and PR are awesome tools; if Mechner is interested it may be possible to include these tools somehow.

The idea I mentioned in my previous post in this thread: while I still believe it has potential, it would be a waste of time for me to look into it further. Nobody has shown the slightest bit of interest. I messaged BrandonWalshGP about it, because I thought he would be interested given his related posts on this forum, but didn't hear from him.

Maybe I'm slowly starting to accept the fact that it's a ghost town here. With some really nice and skilled people. But still. I e-mailed Enrique about apoplexy 2.0 and he didn't write back. Tamas, Jalal, Steve, others; same thing. If Mechner is interested, I'll put the apoplexy project on GitHub after the next (SDL2) release. If he's not, the next release will probably be the - or at least: my - last.

Norbert wrote:I didn't mention Pr1SnesLevEd or Total Pack in my letter because those aren't cross-platform applications, plus Total Pack isn't FOSS. RoomShaker(2) isn't under active development, is not cross-platform, is closed-source, and so on. CusPop and PR are awesome tools; if Mechner is interested it may be possible to include these tools somehow.

It is unfortunate that the SNES version is not as well known as the DOS version while the SNES version is much nicer graphically and the gameplay remains the same with a bunch of new things ...

In addition, I wanted to add that all the world knows "Prince of Persia" but instead the idea of ​​playing MODS (or even create (this is however not very complicated) or join communities (such Princed . org).

spartacus735 wrote:It is unfortunate that the SNES version is not as well known as the DOS version while the SNES version is much nicer graphically and the gameplay remains the same with a bunch of new things ...

It is nicer graphically, but so are most modern games.
For me personally, the SNES version has no nostalgic value, while I fondly remember discovering and playing the DOS version as a kid.

yaqxsw decided to leave the forum, by the way; he wants to focus on other things ("because i have a lot to do").
An understandable decision; unfortunate, still.

I hope my previous post didn't upset anyone. I usually prefer to be honest about my feelings.
I was thinking about Pr1SnesLevEd and David; how I wrote about/to David in 2012: "You are smart for your age, by the way."
While looking though the 2013 highlights, I saw so much impressive stuff by David.
NASA should employ David to work on the Mars rover or something...
That might also be more rewarding for him and it's probably more beneficial to mankind.

I honestly think we will never get a "new" community for the simple reason that when more than 10 years we have never attracted new person with advertising or other means. Although I am not a member of Princed.org from the beginning, I am since 2011 (I know this website since 2009) I think the community does not really change and Princed.org is rather a refuge for nostalgic player (like me with the SNES version of which is why I never play the DOS version) and talented developer with them Princed.org still exists.

It's the sad truth.

@spartacus735

The SNES PoP games are deemed "immature" by nostalgic MSDOS PoP1 and PoP2 players. However, it is more probable for someone who prefers the SNES PoP1 port to gain interest in playing DOS PoP1 mods. I strongly urge you to try a few DOS PoP1 mods and lay off the Super Nintendo hacks for a while.

If you commit to finishing a quality DOS PoP1 mod on your own, you start to "get" it. Do not enable cheats, there is no savestate, learn the controls and the keyboard shortcuts, then proceed. Avoid difficult mods from the start. I recommend that you begin with the original game, then move on to a mod called "Levels 05" by Steven Fayers.

The SNES PoP1 port lacks an element of suspense and uncertainty of the player, something that DOS PoP1 mod makers are successfully able to implement into their maps. I get chills just thinking about the creativity of some levels of certain DOS PoP1 mods. Think back to the first few times you played your favorite level from the original SNES game. Certain DOS PoP1 mods are able to recreate an experience similar to that... In my opinion: The DOS PoP1 is more fun to play, while the .smc file is more fun to modify.

This community may not grow at the rate that we hoped, but the last thing we need right now is to lose someone like yourself over platform prejudice. DOS or SNES, we're one the same team.

I also like the DOS version! But of course I prefer the SNES version because it is with her that I discovered Prince of Persia! Then I play a lot of DOS mod, when I said I never played I wanted to say that I rarely play.

And of course DOS or SNES one is on the same team.

In January 2014 I wrote:

Norbert wrote:If Mechner is interested, I'll put the apoplexy project on GitHub after the next (SDL2) release. If he's not, the next release will probably be the - or at least: my - last.

[Edit: In the end, v3.0 became the/my last version. --Norbert]
I've decided that version 2.6b, released by me in September 2014, is the last apoplexy version. It's a free and open source software package, so in theory one or more new releases (with bug fixes or whatever) could be published by others in the future, but I personally will no longer work on the program. The main reason for this decision is that I've moved on to other hobby programming projects; primarily the one I mentioned here. Additional reasons are Mechner's attitude over the years, PoP is not my (or a Free) intellectual property, apoplexy is 'good enough', and Linux has become a (more) legit gaming OS in recent years which means I feel less inclined to play PoP1. I couldn't find a native level editor of PoP1 for Linux in 2007/2008, and that problem has long since been solved.

I will continue to update popot.org (and princed.org, since its owner, Enrique, has more or less disappeared ) with new and updated mods and software that's being released.

Norbert wrote:Additional reasons are Mechner's attitude over the years

Specifically regarding what? Mods? Disassembly/porting? General lack of interest in the old versions and the community around them? ...?

I think it's the "General lack of interest":
viewtopic.php?p=14298#p14298
viewtopic.php?p=14411#p14411

I don't know if Mechner ever said anything about mods or disassembly/porting.
(But if he really didn't, then that means lack of interest...)
Actually, Jordan commented the C64 port here: http://popc64.blogspot.hu/2011/10/princ ... 64128.html

Yes, I've seen his comments on MrSid's C64 port (which was indeed a stupendous achievement). As for this:

Norbert wrote:Also, I'm still demotivated by Mechner's - what I would describe as - antisocial behavior. People - not just me - take the time to contact him about PoP and he (virtually) never gets back to them.

I just think he might be sick and tired of being known as just the PoP guy (far fewer people know of Karateka or The Last Express), and wants to move on in life. He seems to be concentrating more on his writing (screenplays, books etc.) now, plus of course there's the whole question of whether he himself even accesses his Twitter and website mailbox accounts? For all we know he might not even have received the various messages sent to him, especially the ones sent courtesy Ubisoft (where some employee, perhaps an intern, might have tossed them in the trash for all we know). Calling him "antisocial" is I think going a bit too far.

Anyway, all I can say is that if Norbert has mostly lost interest in PoP (or specifically PoP-related software development), one can hardly blame Mechner either for the same. IMO this community will never be a large and vibrant one as some expect it to be, where their contributions will be met with oohs and aahs from hundreds or thousands of people across the world. Let's face it, PoP 1&2 never had the popularity even in its heyday of, say, Doom 1&2, and the general lack of good fan-made levels (for a long time till the tools were available and mature enough) probably killed off what little chance there was to attract people in larger numbers. (The lack of a modern, especially 64-bit Windows compatible, port till SDLPoP came along didn't help either, despite the availability of DOSBox.) I have a huge amount of respect for what people like David and Norbert others have accomplished (and continue to do so with SDLPoP etc.), but surely developers like them know all too well by now that their efforts will probably never be officially sanctioned and publicized (perhaps even acknowledged) by either Mechner or Ubisoft. Those of us who continue working on PoP-related projects do so out of a combination of nostalgia, sheer love for the games and perhaps because the technical/creative challenges involved make it interesting and worth the effort. In short, while it's natural that someone may lose interest over time in projects they've worked on for years, you can't blame someone else's behavior for it. When nothing has changed when it comes to Mechner (as in he never acknowledged your efforts earlier and hasn't done so now) and yet you worked on something for years because you loved and enjoyed it, why blame him now if you've lost that sense of enjoyment that spurred you on thus far? Don't want to upset people, but it's just the way I feel when it comes to seeking someone's approval for one's own hobby project, no matter how influential that someone might be.

I see no reason to think he doesn't control his own Twitter account. I've contacted him by other means and he does occasionally reply, but only when something is important to him. When I wrote what I did, I took into account that Mechner might be sick of being 'just' "the PoP guy". In my opinion that changes nothing; doesn't change my assessment of his behavior. For many years I've had the same impression of it, and the only thing that changed is that I eventually gave up on him. In my opinion I had been turning a blind eye long enough. Either way, as I wrote it's not the main reason I've stopped developing PoP stuff. I'm working on my own game now and it takes all my time and energy. (When I'm not playing video games... )