General Discussion

[Norbert]

Hey Veke.

I've been thinking, maybe we should make it mandatory for entrants to record playthroughs of all levels of the mods they submit.
The reason I'm thinking this is because I was trying out some of the levels of Mirages Of Persia and some of these are really, really difficult.
(When you know what to do it's doable, but it takes a long time before you know exactly what to do in what order.)
The same goes for some levels of the EXTREM mods.
What if, during the voting phase, many players simply can't pass levels... how will that affect their votes...
More generally speaking, how will we deal with very difficult mods/levels?
I'm afraid that some of these will take so much time to try out - to just get halfway levels - that it will spoil some of the playing fun.
Maybe it will be wise if we make recording playthroughs a requirement.
It will force the authors to playtest their mods and they will automatically focus on creating levels that aren't overly difficult.
(By that I mostly mean: at least no more difficult than what they can finish themselves without too much trouble.)
We could add a section about using DOSBox to record things in the official rules.
It would also make judging easier, because if people get stuck they can check the videos on how to continue.
What do you guys think?

[yaqxsw]

What do you guys think?

good idea. if difficult level, best players all Prince of Persia have to show video. And if it is ineffectual, the author should show how to pass this level

[Eagle-Head Priest 97]

I agree, because I used to make super difficult levels, that in hindsight I'm sure pissed everyone off. I like a fun challenge over a really hard annoying level.

[Norbert]

Okay, I suggest we start the first contest on October 1, 2012. (Note: that would be when the contest period starts, not the date before which mods should be submitted.) We should be able to finalize the rules in a couple of weeks. After that we can create an official forum thread where we'll announce the contest and such. Then, we'll start announcing the contest, even before entrants can actually submit mods. The image that's being used to display the winners and says people can join the next contest: we can use that image to announce the first contest by simply not displaying any winners on it until the first contest has ended. Jalal has mailed me he'll probably put the image above or under the Welcome To text at popuw.com, so I'll make the image a bit wider (from 600 to 770 pixels) to make it fit better. On popot.org, I'll put it under the News header, so it'll fit there too.

I was also thinking that the official rules should probably contain a link to this thread in the last ("ADVICE") section.
That thread is interesting not just for mod creators but also for players.

[mk1995]

I was also thinking that the official rules should probably contain a link to this thread in the last ("ADVICE") section.

Well, it's definitely advice on how to create better levels, so go for it.

[Norbert]

Should the contest have two categories, one for full mods and one for mods where each level has only 2 (or maybe 1 or 4, or 1-4) used rooms?
You know, like the demo parties, where you usually have categories like "demo" and "64k intro".

[Norbert]

Next up are download/thread icons and the header text.

Here's an updated version of the image.
A bit bigger and with download/thread icons and the header text.



Maybe the header font should be wider and not as high as this.
More like this, this, this, this or this...

[Norbert]

Maybe the header font should be wider and not as high as this.

Actually, I kind of like the New Brilliant font for the header:



I've also put small dots around all the clickable stuff (downloads, forum threads, info about contest).

[yaqxsw]

I have an idea. In the same row collect normal and easy level and there we estimate them. In other row difficult levels, the best players there estimate, also insert videos for display of weak players. In the first the subject will be given places of the normal and easy levels 1,2,3 place. On the second to a subject difficult levels 1,2,3 place...

if to collect difficult levels as 1 place, at first it will be pleasant to beginners, and then when they lose, to them will be uninteresting

[Norbert]

I'd say not for the first edition of this contest.

You're right.
I think that mods without guards and SNES mods could/should be part of the regular contests.
So, how about this then: every other edition no more than 4 rooms?

And what is more, they don't really suit (at least in my opionion) Prince of Persia, [...]

Good point.
I'll try out some different fonts.

It would look better (done via some javascript or anything) if the dots were displayed only when mouse hovered. Maybe it's just me, though.

Maybe, yeah.
I want to make sure people will understand things are clickable though.
Not sure how else that could be accomplished, although maybe it's already clear enough, because people recognize the icons and read the text and such.

[Veke]

I felt this topic should be made global and stickied.

Personally, I think we should go for just one mod category in the contest. I mean, when it comes to PoP1 mods, there aren't just two kinds of mods: Short and full length levels; mods differ from each other in many other ways as well. For example, some focus on clever usage of game features/glitches, others try to recapture the feel of the vanilla PoP1 levels. Some mods are extremely difficult, others easier than the original. You get the point.

Also, I think one category would be the most suitable option realistically considering the number of prospective partakers.

As for judging the mods, I think the most important factor would be the fun of playing the mod. Personally, I would also give points for using original resources (graphics, sound) as long as they were decent. However, I think some contestants would rather just concentrate on the LEVELS.DAT and PRINCE.EXE and not edit anything else.

What do you all think?

[Norbert]

Personally, I think we should go for just one mod category in the contest.

You're right.
People can still choose to make 4-room levels if they want, it shouldn't be a specific category or contest on its own.

[mk1995]

I'm with programmer on the different kinds of contests. Maybe we could have one of each (normal levels, 4 room levels, no guards, SNES mods) for every quarter of the year. It would appeal to me more than having it like normal levels -- 4 room levels -- normal levels -- no guards -- normal levels -- SNES mods -- ...

As for the scoring system, I propose a 10/10 or 5/5 scoring system for the categories, as listed below:
Creativity: What are the levels like? Are there some clever (or not-so-clever) ideas in them? Do they a good job at keeping the player's interest, making him want to explore them? (general level design, really) (60% of the total score)
Difficulty: How hard is it to get through the levels? Is the challenge fair, or is there lots of trial and error involved? Are the levels too easy, too hard, or just right? How does the difficulty change from level to level? Does it increase gradually, not-so-gradually? Are there difficulty spikes in it? Heck, do the levels get easier as you progress? (30% of the total score)
Graphics/Sound: Are they changed at all? If so, do they fit with the tone of the game? Do the changes look good or are they an eyesore/earsore? Are multiple environments used or just the ordinary two? (<-- this could go into the "advice" section, too) (10% of the total score; if graphics and sound remain unchanged, 5% each go to Creativity and Difficulty)

[Veke]

I actually completely missed programmer's idea. Now after reading it, it sounds like the most viable option to me as well. So the first contest would have only full length levels, other than that, no rules of what levels should be like. Sounds good.

What's still up in the air is how resource/hex edits would be judged, as we surely can't expect all mods to have fully edited resources. My suggestion would be that editing anything else than the LEVELS.DAT isn't required, but we leave it all optional. Jurors would of course play mod submissions with self-made resources with said resources and consider them in the judging the way they feel is right.

[mk1995]

So the first contest would have only full length levels, other than that, no rules of what levels should be like. Sounds good.

I think you missed it again. Prog's idea was to have "full-length" levels every second contest with 4 room levels, no guards levels, and SNES mods put inbetween in that order. My idea was that there would be a different kind of contest each season. I suppose we could have the Fall season for normal mods, the Winter season for 4 room levelsets, the Spring season for no guard levels, and the Summer season for SNES mods.