Why did the Dahaka chase the Prince, when he needed to kill Kaileena to preserve the timeline?

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Why did the Dahaka chase the Prince, when he needed to kill Kaileena to preserve the timeline?

Postby _Zaphod_ » January 11th, 2015, 11:09 am

This seems like a big plot hole. But when you think about it, the truth is obvious.

The Dahaka was chasing the Prince to drive him to kill the Empress as he was fated to.

See, the prince of SoT would never have killed the empress. In fact, he would have never had reason to travel to the Island of time, were he not chased. and if he were not chased there, the sands of time would never have been created, and the Dahaka would have no business with him.

Kaileena could very easily have defeated the Prince before the reveal. She didn't have to help him figure out how to enter the throne room. SO why did she do this? Why did she antagonize him? Why didn't she explain that her own death is what created the sands?

Because she knew that if he didn't kill her, the Dahaka would ERASE HER, and THEN erase the prince for messing with the sands. As seen in two thrones, she WAS able to return from being the sands, She couldn't have returned if erased by the Dahaka.

The Dahaka let him be and took the wraith so he could kill the Empress, and then, once he fulfilled that duty, the Dahaka then tried to finish the job and erase him. But it was unable to prevent the prince from reaching the mask of the wraith and didn't fully understand it. the Mask of the Wraith allowed the prince to reverse the decision to let the wraith die, and actually change his fate (which was to kill the empress and then get erased for messing with the sands). When he then pushes Kaileena into the present, he does actually undo finding the sands earlier, and the Dahaka comes to remove Kaileena and the sands from the messed with timeline, preventing anyone from messing with the timeline at all, and granting the Prince a reprieve for stopping the Vizier without unleashing the sands himself. But if the prince has the water sword, he then can save Kaileena, slaying the Dahaka and throwing a big monkey wrench into things.

At this point, there's no Dahaka to fix things, so Kaileena is punished by the dagger leading the vizier to her, and the prince is both punished and given a chance to atone. He does, and Kaileena figures out what really happened, and leaves voluntarily to protect the timeline since the Dahaka isn't around to do it, and forces the mental battle to get the prince to abandon the dark prince forever.

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Re: Why did the Dahaka chase the Prince, when he needed to kill Kaileena to preserve the timeline?

Postby The_Negative_One » December 8th, 2015, 4:32 pm

That is a very valid and well thought inquiry. You obviously know your PoP history. My thoughts however are; Since the prince did everything to prevent the Dahaka from taking him, he did indeed die in the end... But then he also had the Mask of the Wraith on his side. Even though all seemed well, fate still knew what the prince had done- despite his efforts. I think this just goes to show that you cannot change your fate. You'd think that this theory that Jordan Mechner thought of was very reasonable- he left out two very important things here however. #1: The Persian mythology states that the Dahaka will catch you no matter what. It will make damned sure that the timeline put there is very specific to each living thing, preserved and cannot be tampered with- for this will be proving that god is wrong! And that tampering with time could end the universe entirely. #2: The Sands of Time shouldn't even work at all once you are near the Dahaka- simply because he has total control over time itself.

Even though the Sands are a supernatural force, so is the Dahaka. You'd also think that both of them would counteract each other- and in this game, they do. But it just doesn't add up to me why the Mask and the Sands work against and with each other since they are both opposites. There are Persian theories that the Mask of the Wraith was given to the Sultan by Loki of Norse Mythology as a token of friendship of some kind... This might be the biggest plot hole here in play- the Mask is from a whole other pantheon. Others say that the Mask was stolen by another god (who remains unknown) and was hidden from the world.

The Dahaka probably cannot differentiate the means of the fate change initiated by the Mask, but the Mask also shows it's biggest flaw- it STILL cannot help you change your fate what-so-ever, so the plot holes keep getting bigger and deeper to no end as we can battle all the different possible scenarios in our minds. I think this is kind of what Jordan Mechner thought about as well- hence throwing the Mask into the game at all... just to boggle our minds.

As a conclusion to my theory; the Mask of the Wraith is a massive impossibility and so fate cannot pinpoint who was the original cause of everything since there are in fact TWO of the same prince with the same fate occupying the same space at the exact same time. The Dahaka most likely got confused and went after both princes anyway. As for Kaileena... Well she was just lucky to have survived through it at all.

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Re: Why did the Dahaka chase the Prince, when he needed to kill Kaileena to preserve the timeline?

Postby doppelganger » December 11th, 2015, 1:00 pm

The_Negative_One wrote:That is a very valid and well thought inquiry... You'd think that this theory that Jordan Mechner thought of was very reasonable- ... I think this is kind of what Jordan Mechner thought about as well-... Well she was just lucky to have survived through it at all.


I thought Jordan Mechner didn't create the story for Warrior Within. He didn't even take part in the production of Warrior Within and The Two Thrones.

Clarifications, anyone?
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Re: Why did the Dahaka chase the Prince, when he needed to kill Kaileena to preserve the timeline?

Postby _Zaphod_ » January 14th, 2016, 1:57 pm

Mechner wasn't involved at all in the sequels. He didn't even figure things out past the first game. There certainly wasn't any "cant' change your fate' message thought up at the time.

My point is that despite all the criticism about the second game, is that things were thought out better then they looked. Yeah, they M rated the game up for marketing purposes, and that's what angered Mechner in the first place, and caused him to bow out. But despite that, they did put some real thought into the series when they made the game.

The sands of time work fine against the Dahaka for 2 reasons. 1) so you can survive to kill the Empress 2) so it can taunt you with reverse speech. It's confident enough that you can't truly prevent your fate that it's willing to JUST LET YOU use them.

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Re: Why did the Dahaka chase the Prince, when he needed to kill Kaileena to preserve the timeline?

Postby _Zaphod_ » December 6th, 2016, 12:14 am

Just to clarify.

The Empress was not trying to change her fate. Sure she was acting like it, and she even fooled Shadee. But she was actually doing everything possible to meet it. (help the prince, then antagonize him, and force him to actually kill her) If she didn't go through the whole act, she wouldn't have gotten killed, and the Dahaka would have done it instead.

The Dahaka has two jobs. 1) protect the timeline 2) erase whoever messes with the sands, if the other humans can't do the job.

Since the prince unleashed the sands, the two duties were in conflict. To preserve the timeline, the prince has to go to the past to kill the Empress, and he can't do that if he gets erased. So it pays lip service to duty 2 and follows duty 1.

Once the prince kill the empress in the past, the Dahaka gets serious, since it's now actually allowed to erase him properly. This is the hardest dahaka chase in the entire game, by FAR.

NO ONE'S FATE WAS CHANGED until the Prince used the Mask of the Wraith, and then pushed the empress into the present. This is screwup one with the timeline. it was not changed until then.

At this point the Dahaka does "goddammit, he actually undid his unleashing of the sands instead of rewinding it, i can't kill him now." It then goes "Wait a minute. Now the Empress isn't supposed to be here. I can erase her, and bye bye sands, no one gets to mess with the timeline ever again. WOOHOO! I get to erase the Empress, and then retire! Go prince!"

And without the water sword, bad end happens. Prince gets a clean slate, no more sand powers, but the vizier is still alive and still plotting. HIs life will be hard, but he can win this.

But with water sword, he beats the Dahaka, causing timeline screwup number 2. At this point, divine intervention happens, since the timeline is fuxx0red with no Dahaka to fix it. So the power that be force the death of the empress, the creation of the sands, and the viziers involvement. The prince gets one more chance to learn his lesson, which he finally actually does in that dry well. That it's not about changing fate, it's about facing responsibility.

And when all is said and done, fate HAS actually been changed. Farah, who was fated to die before, lives, and the empress sees the danger of sticking around as the sands without the Dahaka, and removes herself from the timestream, to accomplish the Dahaka's final goal. With her gone, the Dahaka is no longer needed anyway.


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