Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

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SuavePrince
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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by SuavePrince » December 25th, 2016, 6:47 pm

Falcury wrote:
SuavePrince wrote:I beat level 10 with sdlpop,It's like my video
OK, that wasn't clear to me :)
And nicely done, just a few more levels to go right? ;)

By the way, could you instead post the walkthrough videos in the thread in the Walkthrough Videos section?
Thanks!
Dont need change level 10???and now,level 11 n 12,but with sdlpop... play because is holyday,maybe tomorrow cant play :(

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by Falcury » December 26th, 2016, 12:22 pm

SuavePrince wrote:Dont need change level 10???
They are your videos, you can do whatever you want of course.
Good luck with levels 11 and 12! (they are both harder than 10)

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by talpa » December 27th, 2016, 4:47 pm

I think it's really really too hard.
I am doing for millionth time the run for the exit door in level 8, starting from the right side of the gate, having every loose tile drop and body of the guards stucking drop buttons, and it's still impossible to make it in time FOR THE BONUS POTION.
Need some way to circumvent this, it's unacceptable losing the bonus level this way :(

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by Falcury » December 27th, 2016, 5:52 pm

talpa wrote:I think it's really really too hard.
I am doing for millionth time the run for the exit door in level 8, starting from the right side of the gate, having every loose tile drop and body of the guards stucking drop buttons, and it's still impossible to make it in time FOR THE BONUS POTION.
Need some way to circumvent this, it's unacceptable losing the bonus level this way :(
Wow, congratulations on getting so far already! :D

I'd recommend to revisit the level later, to see if there is anything you else you can do to save time to run to the exit.
I guarantee you that it is possible ;)
If you want, you could create a backup of your quicksave file (mods/Secrets of the Citadel/QUICKSAVE.SAV) so you could continue from that point onward later.
Spoiler: show
Hint: for the level 8 challenge, you can save massively on time if you don't have to wait for that gate to open once the mouse comes around!
Spoiler: show
You can make the loose tile in the room with the level door button drop earlier. Then, once you reach the level door raise button, you can escape the room without waiting for the mouse. Then, after the gates have closed behind you, wait for the mouse to trigger the gates, then immediately run to the right.
Reaching the bonus level is really meant to be a VERY significant achievement! I wouldn't expect to reach it the first time around.
I really intended it as an "ultimate" achievement.
Levels 9 and higher are also not easy... I'd say, don't worry about it too much, take it slow :)

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by talpa » December 27th, 2016, 7:22 pm

As for the run in level8, I had already followed the suggestion you made in the spoiler section, that way it was easy to reach the room with the exit door, still seems impossible to pass also through the gate for the bonus potion room. I cheated: I edited the levels.dat adding a raise button there :D

I just wanted to be sure I would be able to see the alternate ending and play in the alternate version of level 14, the bonus level. I think I will play that before completing levels 9-12 :D. It seems very promising:
Spoiler: show
Jaffar in a closed, unreachable room
Some potions that at first view do nothing
Some difficult acrobacy to perform...

As for the skeleton boss, it was true that it's difficult to hit, not so difficult to have it fall, though.
Image

Image

Image

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by talpa » December 27th, 2016, 9:35 pm

I will try to complete levels 9 to 12.

I hope nobody, especially Falcury, will get upset if I attach a way to go directly to the bonus level.
I have no hope of ever finishing it, so I hope someone will try it and post a walkthrough video.

Why I will never be able to complete the bonus level:
Spoiler: show
I discovered that potion actually do something, but I can't think of a way to get here:
Image
Then, I understand there will be a stunt that I will be both forever too slow to even get there and try it, and too difficult to complete:
Spoiler: show
Image


If someone wants to see the alternate ending, I was still able to cheat to it: How to go to the bonus level:
Spoiler: show
Save one of your games with F6. Find the folder in which quicksave.dat is created (..\Secrets of the Citadel v1.2\mods\Secrets of the Citadel). Download the attached file, rename it .SAV e replace the original one with it
Attachments
QUICKSAVE.DAT
(2.72 KiB) Downloaded 6 times

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by Falcury » December 28th, 2016, 12:37 am

talpa wrote:As for the run in level8, I had already followed the suggestion you made in the spoiler section, that way it was easy to reach the room with the exit door, still seems impossible to pass also through the gate for the bonus potion room.
It is possible to run/jump in a straight line without ever stopping. It all depends on which obstacles you removed. Also, you can jump through the last gate which saves some extra time.
talpa wrote:I hope nobody, especially Falcury, will get upset if I attach a way to go directly to the bonus level.
I have no hope of ever finishing it, so I hope someone will try it and post a walkthrough video.
You're very eager...
But what matters is not the destination, but the journey (that's what makes it an 'achievement' after all ;))
talpa wrote:Why I will never be able to complete the bonus level:
No comment :P
talpa wrote:Then, I understand there will be a stunt that I will be both forever too slow to even get there and try it, and too difficult to complete:
Actually, if I understand you correctly, that is in fact not the intended solution!
Spoiler: show
What is the ONLY possible other way of making that loose tile fall?
Anyway, good luck on levels 9-12!

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by talpa » December 28th, 2016, 9:55 am

Falcury wrote:You're very eager
Guilty! :D
you can jump through the last gate
I think that's maybe what I can't accomplish, since I checked every other thing (loose floors on spikes, guards, etc). Though, this "without ever stopping" leaves me dubious... at a certain point there are two spikes and a skeleton with no loose floors above, and it seemed you had to slow down just a bit cause you were arriving from a previous jump and unable to jump again in time... I have to be wrong...

As for level 14... It will be a long way there. I suspect levels 9 and 11 are very very difficult, still having to even have a look to 12.
As for my questions and you kind reply:
Spoiler: show
I took screenshots in such a way to avoid too much of a spoiler, but in order to be more clear:
1) I can't think of a way to get to second green potion, even using the feather one
2) I think I understood the raise buttons on the left side of the screen I take, still it will be very fast and furious to get through the two gates not shown in the figure; then, you will have to run through the screen I took and jump avoiding the drop button, it seems "impossible" :P

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by Falcury » December 28th, 2016, 11:40 am

talpa wrote:Though, this "without ever stopping" leaves me dubious... at a certain point there are two spikes and a skeleton with no loose floors above, and it seemed you had to slow down just a bit cause you were arriving from a previous jump and unable to jump again in time... I have to be wrong...
I never said you have let ALL loose tiles fall... :)
Remember that the prince can do a running jump just before a spikes tile, if there is one.
talpa wrote:As for level 14... It will be a long way there. I suspect levels 9 and 11 are very very difficult, still having to even have a look to 12.
Spoiler: show
Level 11 is indeed hard, not so much because of difficult acrobatics, but more because it requires careful strategy and planning. I think this makes it one of my favorite levels in the set (as frustrating as it may no doubt be to figure out at first...)
Level 9 has some tricky passages (quicksave to the rescue!). And, one of the life potions in level 9 is difficult to the point where it is not even funny anymore (sorry... :P)
About the level 14 questions:
Spoiler: show
talpa wrote:1) I can't think of a way to get to second green potion, even using the feather one
2) I think I understood the raise buttons on the left side of the screen I take, still it will be very fast and furious to get through the two gates not shown in the figure; then, you will have to run through the screen I took and jump avoiding the drop button, it seems "impossible" :P
1) Carefully examine which raise button opens which gate in that section of the level. Is there a theoretical way how you could create a path between the feather potion and the other one? (Glory to the brave!)
2) In the room where you took the screenshot, you can also knock down the remaining loose tile to open the gate from below. (Then the challenge becomes, how to do that and still get back to where you need to go?)
(And you can use the remaining loose floor in that room to do a running jump over the drop button)

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by talpa » December 28th, 2016, 6:58 pm

Level 8 run: yeah!!!
Image

It was actually "just" the jump through the final gate :D
Last edited by talpa on December 28th, 2016, 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by talpa » December 28th, 2016, 9:06 pm

I think I found an alternate solution for level 11
You were right I like this level very much
Spoiler: show
I didn't kill the first guard of the level right there where it was, instead I lured him through three rooms over here where the light blue guard is.
In the image below you can see only one body, but actually I killed the blue guard on a raise button and then the first, orange, guard on the other raise button :P

I even found, random walking through the level, the loose tiles that I think were meant to press one of the raise button, but then I died and on this other run I forgot them :) and that's how I ended killing both guards in the same room
Image

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by talpa » December 29th, 2016, 1:56 am

Hi Falcury,
I finally made it to the end of the bonus level alternate 14, but I would like to ask you a thing about the final stunt, that I was able to complete once in literally hundreds of try, so I think I am missing something.
Spoiler: show
The (almost, but surely most difficult) final stunt should be passing through the gate shown as closing in the following figure
Image
(I have already drunk the two green potions that open the gates and prepared the level)
You have to press a couple buttons and jump a couple time to the left and to the right, but there are some critical moments:

There is only one button the raises that very gate. You can try to use a little bit less time by sliding and pressing it only when you are already sliding back

Then you have to jump left to the gate in front of the chompers. Is there some trick to save time? If you land over the gate, you will lose one life and be stuck for a while. It can happen (but I can't control how exactly and I am not sure that you spend less time than being stuck) that you land exactly on the edge, so you lose one life but don't get stuck since you start to fall down: you can grab and pull up. Is pulling up less time expensive than being stuck?

Then you have jump through the chompers. I think you have to slide in the room on the left in order to jump more far. Once you passed the chomper, is useful to make another jump?

Once you are already in the position shown in figure, is there some trick to pass under the gate? (jumping, sliding, crunching)...?

Am I missing something else?

Is the whole stunt possible only if you both press the raise button while sliding your way back AND on the following jump you land exactly on the edge? Is there something else in addition?

I also considered a completely different path (through the upper room where there was a guard, the room on the left of the starting one) but it seems even slower.

Thank you

Image

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by Falcury » December 29th, 2016, 12:00 pm

talpa wrote:Level 8 run: yeah!!!
Nice!
talpa wrote:I think I found an alternate solution for level 11
Yeah, that definitely works :) The game engine can't handle more than one guard in a room of course, so the other body disappears...
Did you get the life potion as well?

About level 14:
Spoiler: show
:shock: I'm really amazed that this strategy was possible, because it's not the route that I intended!
But, congratulations on passing the level! :)

I'm not sure about the exact moves you asked about, I never really tested this strategy very intensely. I was satisfied that it was impossible... If you want to know for sure what moves are the fastest, you could try enabling SDLPoP's debug cheats using the "debug" command-line parameter, then pressing T to enable the in-game timer, which shows you the exact number of ticks that has passed.

Yeah, your hunch is right, there is another way to get past those gates.
Have you considered going through the gate directly to the right of the raise button in that room (on the top floor)?
It involves some set-up in the top part of the level, which you mentioned.

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by talpa » December 29th, 2016, 12:47 pm

Falcury wrote:Have you considered...
Spoiler: show
going through the gate directly to the right of the raise button in that room (on the top floor)?
It involves some set-up in the top part of the level, which you mentioned.
Wow! That's true, I have to try that. I disregarded that possibility thinking it was just a "trap": if you make that tile drop before drinking the potion, you are cut out forever. But then, you can do that after, and of course I expect that to diminish considerably the time needed to pass through the gate! Thank you! I definitely will try it as soon as I can
Falcury wrote:I'm really amazed that this strategy was possible, because it's not the route that I intended!
Don't worry about your intentions: as I said, it happened just once over hundreds of attempts, so even if it wasn't strictly impossible, I think I have tested it enough, and it is "practically" impossible. This was the reason for my asking if I was missing some way of being faster. I think we can conclude there isn't a way, and maybe it can happen "by chance" that you are able to pass one time over thousand ;)

Finally, let me thank you for your levelset, it's really fun and challenging, and very well designed.

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Re: Mod: Secrets of the Citadel

Post by Falcury » December 29th, 2016, 1:49 pm

talpa wrote:Don't worry about your intentions: as I said, it happened just once over hundreds of attempts, so even if it wasn't strictly impossible, I think I have tested it enough, and it is "practically" impossible. This was the reason for my asking if I was missing some way of being faster. I think we can conclude there isn't a way, and maybe it can happen "by chance" that you are able to pass one time over thousand ;)
OK! It's stuff like this that makes designing puzzle levels so especially hard, I think. So many things to take into consideration...
Maybe it should have been clearer that it wasn't the correct way.
Your ordeals remind me of a lecture by Jonathan Blow, where he talked about subtle communication in level design (communicating what is possible and what is impossible to the player):
https://youtu.be/rskI8qg-7qQ?t=789
talpa wrote:Finally, let me thank you for your levelset, it's really fun and challenging, and very well designed.
Thank you for your kind words!

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