Researching the Repetition of Time

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Researching the Repetition of Time

Post by Wong »

Hi everyone! I made this account sixteen years ago, and now make videos about DOS games at https://www.youtube.com/davidxnewton . I'm impressed with some of the detective work from people to link me to this account in the past :)

I recently played Repetition of Time on stream for a charity drive I'm doing, and because I don't have an in-depth knowledge of the Prince engine bugs and unintentional features myself, I was absolutely fascinated by the unusual tricks in it and wondered how they were done. I'd like to dive more into it and do a video about how some of the things were achieved - the giant potion, the misbehaving gates (that look open when they're closed and vice versa), the stone Jafars...

Has any documentation already been written about how mod authors can use quirks of the engine in unexpected ways like this? I'd be grateful for anything you could refer me to, or if I can ask questions here directly!
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

Post by Norbert »

Nice to see a new post by you. :)
You've created several good videos about PoP.
Wong wrote: January 12th, 2020, 5:55 amI recently played Repetition of Time on stream
That's a great mod.
For those interested, here are direct links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL-Db2tvoI4 (l1-3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CxgnWaZ8zk (l4-6)
Wong wrote: January 12th, 2020, 5:55 amHas any documentation already been written [...]
Yeah, information about Repetition of Time is available here:
https://www.popot.org/documentation.php ... ual_Tricks
[Edit: And the big potion changing was accomplished with broken room links. So, the 'fallen' potion is actually in another room.]
Other relevant pages may be events, tricks, PR and CusPop, among others.
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

Post by David »

[Note: Norbert posted his post while I was writing mine!]
Wong wrote: January 12th, 2020, 5:55 am Hi everyone! I made this account sixteen years ago,
Welcome back!
Wong wrote: January 12th, 2020, 5:55 am I'd like to dive more into it and do a video about how some of the things were achieved - the giant potion, the misbehaving gates (that look open when they're closed and vice versa), the stone Jafars...
Norbert made a collage about the visual tricks used in Repetition of Time:
viewtopic.php?p=11286#p11286
https://www.popot.org/documentation.php ... ual_Tricks

Basically, many images were replaced with images of something else from the game.
I don't know if you're familiar with the PR (Princed Resources) tool.
It's a tool which lets modders change images in PoP DAT files. These changes in Repetition of Time were done using PR.

Another trick which is heavily used in this mod but not found in the original game is broken room links.
Again, I don't know how familiar are you with them, or with PoP's room links in general.

An example of broken room links from level 12 of Repetition of Time:
If you go left,down,left or left,left,down from the starting room, then you'll end up in room 6 with the giant potion standing.
But if you go up,right,left,down from that room, you'll end up in room 15 with the giant potion tipped over.
So even though you moved in a way which should have returned you to the room where you started, you ended up in a different room.

(By the way, how familiar are you PoP level editors or cheat mode? You can use them to quickly move between rooms and also to see room numbers.)

So why does the prince die when he enters the room with the tipped over potion?
Because that's room 15 of level 12, and the shadow appears at the top left corner in this room. (see the special events documentation below)
That part is filled with walls, and the shadow will fall through them, right out of the room.
So the shadow dies, and when he dies, the prince dies too.
Wong wrote: January 12th, 2020, 5:55 am Has any documentation already been written about how mod authors can use quirks of the engine in unexpected ways like this?
In addition to what I linked above, there is a list of tricks (and bugs) found in the game, and we also have a forum thread about them.

We also have a documentation about special events in PoP, about things like the shadow, etc.
Wong wrote: January 12th, 2020, 5:55 am I'd be grateful for anything you could refer me to, or if I can ask questions here directly!
Feel free to ask! :)
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

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By the way, see also the mod's trailer.
The trailer is from 2006, so the video quality is not great.
But it's official; only the music was added later.
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

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Thank you so much! These links are a really promising start, and I spent the weekend poring fascinatedly over the levels in apoplexy until well into the night. I just love how KingOfPersia took the special events that are hardcoded into the game and used them in unexpected ways that the player doesn't see - like a magician tricking an audience into thinking they're seeing something else :) The visual tricks collage and the document of special effects have been particularly good at pointing me towards things like how the checkpoint trick in level 3 was done, and that description of the giant potion was fantastic... it's an effect that neatly combines the use of new graphics, broken room links and the unexpected use of a special event.

I was trying to work out what turns that shadow event off, allowing the prince to pass through the room with the spilled potion - I thought it had to be affected by drinking the grey potion in room 11 and was trying to see what that potion did... but then I saw it was yet another switch behind the player's back, where you enter yet another set of rooms and the spilled potion room you go through the third time is room 21 without the special event! So the apparent potion does nothing, and is just a useful way for the player to think that they've drunk some sort of hazmat potion. This mod is truly incredible :) (Is that grey potion just a neutral potion that exists in the game but is never used?)

I think the biggest mystery I still don't understand is the stone Jafars on level 9. By looking through Apoplexy I can see that the room with the Jafars is actually five rooms, one with four skeletons and the others with a guard and the other three skeletons. I assume the skeleton graphics are replaced with the Jafar pillars - but how does the guard appear like Jafar? Is this more replaced graphics, or is the level somehow set to use Jafars as guards and replace the palette?

A couple more things to do with Apoplexy itself :)
- How do I move to rooms that aren't directly connected to other rooms (is there a keyboard shortcut to go to the next/previous rooms numerically, for example?)
- This is odd, but right-clicking anywhere will instantly delete the entire current level and fill it with garbage (looks like just random tiles with half-open choppers, guards, spikes, etc placed randomly). I run a few autohotkey scripts to help replace the mouse buttons on my subpar trackpad so I think one of them might be causing it, is there some hidden debug feature I'm accidentally triggering here?
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

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Wong wrote: January 14th, 2020, 5:53 am[...] but how does the guard appear like Jafar?
If you copy ROT_DOS.EXE to PRINCE.EXE, and then (re)start apoplexy, you can see some of the mod's executable changes by pressing F2 on the main screen. The guard type of level 9 has been changed to F(at), and FAT.DAT in turn has been modified to have the fat guard look like Jaffar. Third from the top left here (image).
Wong wrote: January 14th, 2020, 5:53 am- This is odd, but right-clicking anywhere will instantly delete the entire current level and fill it with garbage [...].
This randomization is the intended behavior. Keys "\" and "|" also do this (see docs/keys.txt). The idea behind this is that it can be used by modders to find unexpected layouts/tricks/etc., that they might not have thought of themselves, through playtesting.
Wong wrote: January 14th, 2020, 5:53 am- How do I move to rooms that aren't directly connected to other rooms (is there a keyboard shortcut to go to the next/previous rooms numerically, for example?)
I've put your suggestion on the TODO list for the program. This should be easy enough to implement. RoomShaker has Level->Edit Room.
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

Post by Wong »

Aha, thanks. I've been poking through Apoplexy - that F2 screen is definitely helpful to understand how the Prince EXE was changed. I see my assumption that it wasn't changed at all is a bit wrong, because Repetition of Time alters which level tileset is used in a couple of places, as well as where the FAT guards appear (now level 9) and the starting time limit for the game. I also see that these changes are in sdlpop.ini in the ROT folder, which SDLPOP picks up on separately - that's why I had assumed there were no changes to the EXE, I didn't know that existed and thought any changes to the EXE would have been irrelevant to sdlpop.

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how level 7 works - I see that the "open doors" are actually solid tapestry tiles that have been repainted, so it makes sense that those are solid, and I think I just about get how the broken links work to fool the player into an apparently backwards exit door. But how is the walkable closed gate done? I see that it's on the ! tile which warns that using it might make the level unstable - what's that doing from the perspective of the game? (The same seems to go for the walk-throughable wall at the left side of the confusing room in level 9).

By the way, what are the tiles that are numbers "1", "2", etc and the No Entry sign, how do they differ from the normal tiles?

Edit: One more thing! Is the grey potion that's available in both the palace and dungeon tilesets a handy leftover that was never used in the base game?
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

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Wong wrote: January 18th, 2020, 10:35 pmI see my assumption that [the EXE] wasn't changed [...]
To make things more complicated:
SDLPoP can autodetect changes in DOS PRINCE.EXE executable files. Generally, this is how SDLPoP, e.g. if launched from apoplexy, knows what game modifications (used by mods) to apply. The Repetition of Time ZIP at Popot.org is one of the few exceptions to include SDLPoP (1.17), including an SDLPoP.ini file that makes sure the correct modifications are applied.
Wong wrote: January 18th, 2020, 10:35 pmBut how is the walkable closed gate done?
Let's start with the walkable closed exit door:

"Once the level exit door is open, certain other CLOSED exits also become accessible: in the starting room level exits on the far left only (from the room to the left); in other rooms all exits."
Trick 132 illustrates one variant:


Now the walkable closed gate:
Wong wrote: January 18th, 2020, 10:35 pmI see that it's on the ! tile [...]
You are referring to the tile in room 14, middle row, far right.
The tiles screen of apoplexy presents available tiles at the same locations, regardless of whether the environment is dungeon or palace.
If you compare the dungeon and palace tiles screens, you will see tiles marked with "!" are simply not available in the active environment.
Using them means using an unavailable resource, and the result is distortion in-game.
You can freely place such tiles and playtest. You can't break things. After testing simply place back another tile.
Normally, the palace environment has no skeleton resource.
The author of Repetition of Time actually added a palace resource for this tile, but used a gate image.
See the text starting "Finally, I wouldn't be surprised" here.
(It describes something similar, but for using a mirror in the dungeon environment.)
In room 14, you can see it's the skeleton tile by pressing "t" to switch from palace to dungeon.
Wong wrote: January 18th, 2020, 10:35 pmBy the way, what are the tiles that are numbers "1", "2", etc and the No Entry sign, how do they differ from the normal tiles?
The numbered tiles look and behave exactly the same, but are stored in LEVELS.DAT with different variant (a.k.a. modifier) bytes. If you press "i" you can see these values.
The meaning of the no entry signs differs depending on the tile group. You can run through such spikes without dying, such chompers don't move/kill, such loose floors don't fall because of the prince (only when triggered by a button or when another loose floor falls on it).
Note, as I'm sure you already know, that not all tiles on the tiles screen are in the original game.

I don't know why the small bubbleless potion exists. If I had to guess - but David might know better - it's simply because the game's code says which variants (modifiers) in the potions group have which sizes/bubbles/effects, and the default is small, no bubbles, no effect.
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

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Wong wrote: January 18th, 2020, 10:35 pm Edit: One more thing! Is the grey potion that's available in both the palace and dungeon tilesets a handy leftover that was never used in the base game?
Are you referring to the empty potion?
If so, why do you call it grey?
Is that because SDLPoP's level maps mark such potions with a grey "x"?

Norbert wrote: January 19th, 2020, 1:01 am I don't know why the small bubbleless potion exists. If I had to guess - but David might know better - it's simply because the game's code says which variants (modifiers) in the potions group have which sizes/bubbles/effects, and the default is small, no bubbles, no effect.
According to the SDLPoP source, the default bubble color is red, and the empty potion is explicitly drawn without bubbles.
https://github.com/NagyD/SDLPoP/blob/ma ... 008.c#L631

The Apple II source also handles the empty potion specially.
https://github.com/jmechner/Prince-of-P ... EBG.S#L681

But this still doesn't explain why does the game support empty potions.
Maybe there was a scrapped idea that after the prince has drunk a potion, he would put back the empty pot back to the floor?
Or perhaps the intent was simply that zero should mean "none"?

Norbert wrote: January 19th, 2020, 1:01 am (level 7)
You are referring to the tile in room 14, middle row, far right.
[...]
Normally, the palace environment has no skeleton resource.
The author of Repetition of Time actually added a palace resource for this tile, but used a gate image.
Wow, I didn't know about this!
It's not on the collage, and I didn't bother to check if the mod contained any further visual tricks.
(I haven't played the mod.)
And although the VPALACE.DAT overview page contains the Repetition of Time graphics, this doesn't appear there either, because the palace test level had no skeleton.
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

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David wrote: January 19th, 2020, 10:15 pmMaybe there was a scrapped idea that after the prince has drunk a potion, he would put back the empty pot back to the floor?
Yes, that could be; makes sense.
David wrote: January 19th, 2020, 10:15 pmIt's not on the collage, [...]
True. I'll update the collage after Newton's next on-topic video is live.
(Assuming he'll make one. If not, I'll simply update the collage later.)
David wrote: January 19th, 2020, 10:15 pm(I haven't played the mod.)
I have also never played it fully. I think its maziness makes me reluctant to do so. Plus, I've already seen others go through it; Newton most recently. Interesting in a way, that we've been highly active in the modding community for more than a decade, but haven't played through a mod that is deservedly considered to be one of the - if not the - best.

Off-topic:
I see that Newton released his own game, Crystal Towers 2 XL, on Steam.
Created using Clickteam Fusion, apparently. (Software first mentioned on this forum here.)
Preview video of the game on YouTube.
I'll pick it up during its next sale.
(So, is it X or K, and why move to the US? ;))
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

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By the way, he also added the left+right (palace) balconies to the dungeon environment.
The right one is unused, but the left is the (fake) wall in level 9.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7gg_DTLqlM&t=1936
(So, that's not a strange broken room link or anything like that.)

And, to make the whole thing complete, he also changed this image:
VDUNGEON.DAT: vdungeon/background/bricks02.bmp
change.png
change.png (592 Bytes) Viewed 2840 times
This gets interesting:
This wall pattern is a variant (modifier) of the floors group.
Interestingly:
In Repetition of Time, this dungeon floor variant is used nowhere.
However, in level 9, under each fat guard (Jaffar in RoT), the variant is used for the empty group.
room 10, bottom row, 7 from left
room 13, bottom row, 5 from left
room 19, bottom row, 3 from left
room 20, bottom row, 1 from left
There's no way this is a coincidence, is it... David? :)

[Edit:]
Actually, this - if I'm not mistaken - is where it would show up.
floor_location.png
floor_location.png (5.63 KiB) Viewed 2833 times
So, it seems the author was only measuring where the floor would be.
And, for whatever reason, decided against using this floor variant!
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

Post by Wong »

That measurement tile is a great find and I think that's a nice deduction of what it was used for! While Repetition of Time definitely gets more obtuse and guide-requiring than I had remembered, its sleight of hand makes it such an interesting thing to play through and dive into to see how the tricks were done. I've got 2500 words of the deep-dive video written so far, so this is definitely happening thanks to information from both of you :)
Norbert wrote:SDLPoP can autodetect changes in DOS PRINCE.EXE executable files.
Funny thing is, this is how I assumed it worked at first and had written a paragraph talking about its cleverness, and it was only after that that I realized that the SDLPOP.INI existed in the ROT folder and that it would be picking up on that instead :) So it's both - that's great.
Norbert wrote:The author of Repetition of Time actually added a palace resource for this tile, but used a gate image.
I see...! So the ! tiles are unused in one or the other environment, but it's possible to add graphics for them, and so KingOfPersia made them appear like doors or gates or stone Jafars or whatever else - the game doesn't know that they're meant to be walls or gates, so the Prince can move through them without issue. Knowing this explains most of the other questions I had about how some of these things work - there's no huge hacking involved, just things that look like other things :)
David wrote: January 19th, 2020, 10:15 pm Are you referring to the empty potion?
If so, why do you call it grey?
Is that because SDLPoP's level maps mark such potions with a grey "x"?
Ah! I'm sorry for the confusion... it might be difficult to explain because of how I see the world :) Calling it "grey" wasn't a weird nickname or mistranslation, but because I'm colourblind and honestly saw the pattern around the potion as grey! Following on from this, I've now looked at all the potions with a colour tool and have discovered for the first time in my life that the potions have no difference in the colour of their sprites and it's only the bubbles above them that are red, blue or green. The brown colour that's used on the bottle is neutral enough that it must have prompted my eyes to see it as red, green or even blue when they were "prompted" by the colours of the bubbles, and with no bubbles there, I just saw the neutral colour and assumed that it was grey. This is bizarre to me, honestly, because it's only today that I've found out the potion sprites don't look like what I've seen them as all my life!

Either way... interesting to see the code and how the potion appearance is determined :) Yet another tiny odd decision in the original game that KingOfPersia exploited.
Norbert wrote:I see that Newton released his own game, Crystal Towers 2 XL, on Steam.
Created using Clickteam Fusion, apparently. (Software first mentioned on this forum here.)
Yes :) I first finished it in 2011 with an independent release, I think, and then got into Steam Greenlight during its early days and I did the XL re-release with some improvements and bugfixes in 2015. Fusion is a great piece of software for putting things together quickly, though I haven't had the time to take on large game-making projects for the last few years. You might recognize where I got the inspiration for the health upgrade motif...

Image
Norbert wrote:(So, is it X or K
Story about this as well! My real middle initial is K, but during my second year of university, I put it down on my entry form for the school of chemistry and I must have written it a bit strange because my name appeared on all class lists, handouts and exams that year with the middle initial X. I just adopted it for my Internet name to make it a little more unique, having a fairly generic name in real life (I haven't yet worked in a job that doesn't have at least one person with the same name as me).
Norbert wrote:why move to the US? ;))
To cut a long story short, it seemed like a good idea at the time...

Thanks again for these amazing responses - I'll keep you updated as I piece these together!
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

Post by Norbert »

That is very interesting, how you perceive(d) the potions, and what you recently learned about them.
You should totally mention that in your video. ;)

One small detail, perhaps useful: the mod was released in October 2006.
Its official forum thread is no longer online...
http://popuw.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767
...but you can find archived copies here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070326160 ... .php?t=767
https://www.popot.org/popuw_forum_archive/767a.html
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

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My god, the explanation for level 7 alone is 1,500 words - this might turn out to be an epic. I just wanted to drop it here to show the kind of approach I'm taking... hopefully it makes more sense once I add the visuals :)

---------------------------
Level 7 and its weird doors
---------------------------

Image

Level 7 of Repetition of Time is full of doors that don't behave in the way you would expect. In this area you're faced with open gates that you can't walk through, closed gates that you can walk through, and a particularly tricky level exit that has the same sort of Opposite Day behaviour. This is achieved through a particularly involved use of broken room links, combined with some replacement graphics, an arguable bug in the game and some sleight of hand with the level layout that forces the player to take a certain route without making it too obvious.

Once you've survived the very long gauntlet of falling platforms from the starting area on the right, you arrive in the main part of the level - and I'll have to zoom out here to help me explain what's going on. This apparently straightforward arrangement of rooms shifts around like a Rubik's Cube as you move through them, and I'm going to do my best to explain what's going on without anybody's head exploding. I've only got two dimensions to work with here, so I'll attempt to walk through it using the device of multiple different realities or parallel universes as popularized by Super Mario.

You begin this section in what we'll call the yellow reality. You climb over the wall from the right hand side and jump down, with the level layout ensuring that you can't leave this area once you've entered. From here, you have access to five rooms, numbered 9, 10, 11, 12, and 20, which almost all logically link to each other as you would expect. You're apparently free to travel between all of them, but the only way up to the top layer is through room 11. On the way, they'll run over this tile, which has an event ID that points to the exit and therefore opens it.

This is where the player encounters the first sign that things are a bit strange here. They will of course be tempted to dive through the open gate as soon as they see the exit opening, but will be surprised when they bonk their head against it. This is because the open gate is just a replacement graphic for one of the palace's tapestry tiles that isn't used anywhere else in the game - this is what the room looks like in the Apoplexy editor if you load it up without replacing any of the graphics. What the Prince is doing here is essentially running into a wall that's painted to look like an open gate, like so many coyotes chasing after roadrunners.

Eventually the player will give up on that and try exploring upwards. Again, the layout of the level comes into play here by placing this falling tile on the only route upwards - in doing so the game ensures that you must open the exit, and you must cause a broken tile on the right hand side, and both of these things are important for disguising the illusion as the rooms swap over each other.

When the player goes up to room 12 on the top and climbs down the other side of the wall, the first broken room link hits. Instead of pointing back to room 11 with the exit that they just opened, the lower exit from room 12 goes to room 13, which I'm designating as the blue reality. This is a second copy of the exit room that looks almost identical to the one that the player just left - complete with the broken tile on the right hand side, because there's no way to leave room 11 without knocking it down. The player will of course attempt to go through the exit, but will quickly find that the prince just jumps around infuriatingly in front of it. This door, too, is just a painting on the wall - a replaced background tile is responsible, which has been edited to look like an inviting open exit instead of an unremarkable background decoration.

Because the apparently open gate in the middle of the room is still a wall, the player's only option from here is to go to the left, into the space which is now occupied by room 15 in the blue reality. It's only once they drop down and go back to the right on the bottom layer that they return to room 10 and the yellow reality where they started once more, and are free to complete the whole confusing loop again.

Eventually, either by deduction or frustration, the player will be hit with a brainwave to try going through the closed gate in room 12 to see if the weird behaviour of gates and doors extends to it as well - and indeed, will find that this is a door that the player can climb straight through. As you might expect by now, this is another graphical replacement, but it's got an extra step to it. The previous replacements were easy enough because the player wouldn't notice the absence of one of the tapestries or that particular background wall decoration in-game, but the game has precious few walkable tiles available and giving up one of those for this one-off trick would be next to impossible. However, adding one more new graphic was possible without catastrophic levels of hackery due to the way that Prince of Persia's level graphics are stored.

The game has two different tile sets consisting of 72 tiles each - one for palace levels and the other for dungeons. The vast majority of the tiles are shared between both sets - the various floors, torches, windows and objects like spikes and choppers are all represented in the same place in each one. However, there are a couple of gaps in each one where the other tileset doesn't have a direct equivalent - the palace has several arch decorations and tapestries that are blank in the dungeon set, and the dungeon has one tile with a pile of bones that doesn't appear in the palace. This is what KingOfPersia took advantage of - he put a bones tile in this palace level, and added the necessary graphics to the palace DAT file where the game would try to look for the bones graphics, so that the game would draw them like a closed gate. Despite the tile's appearance, the game treats it just like a bones tile, so it thinks it's perfectly walkable just like its dungeon counterpart and so the player can go straight through it unimpeded.

So once you're through the gate, you enter a new room number 14 on the top left, and silently go into what I'm calling the magenta reality. This encompasses room 14 and replacements for all of the other rooms in this section, using slots 16, 17, 18, 20 and 24. From here, your route becomes more straightforward again because once you're in this reality, you can't get back out - these copies of the rooms all link back to each other logically, with the exception of room 14 itself where you can back to room 12 in the yellow reality before you pass the point of no return.

Therefore, the player is now free to make their way back to the exit, which has apparently now closed again - the closing tile that the player is forced over in room 14 drops a hidden gate at the top right of room 18 which the player can never reach, but seeing the closed exit door on their way back around in the third copy of the lower central room numbered 17 gives the player the impression that they've instead closed the exit, despite this not being possible in the game.

What's actually happening is that this is a second copy of the exit - remember that the exit that we opened in room 11 in the yellow reality was the first one, and the one that we saw in room 15 in the blue reality wasn't really an exit, just a background picture. The opening tile that we pressed in room 11 opened the exit, because the tile's event ID was linked to the exit - but understandably, Jordan Mechner never really deliberately defined what happened when a level had more than one exit like this one does. By coincidence, what happens is that all the exits on the level become usable, even though only the exit that the button points to is animated. Therefore, KingOfPersia has a perfect setup to make the player able to run through a closed exit - it's a bug in the game that happened to be there, and he built this entire mind-bending opposite land around that quirk.

There's just one last thing to address. This entire setup uses thirteen of the 24 available rooms, and the running and jumping section at the start of the level is two screens high and ten screens wide. Where did the room for those twenty extra screens come from? The answer is broken room links yet again - the obstacle course with all the falling platforms is ten screens wide, and all of the rooms point to one more single room as their bottom exit. This explains the apparent graphical glitches that I saw on the stream, with platforms falling on the right hand side of the pit being visible on the left. Ten rooms of jumping, one for the pit of death and thirteen for the madness at the end of the level brings the total to exactly 24.
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Re: Researching the Repetition of Time

Post by Shauing »

Great explanation, Wong. Can't wait to see the video and hear your commenting, which is always entertaining and funny very occasionally.
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