Download The Game

Discuss PoP1 for DOS here.

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Andrew
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Re: Download The Game

Postby Andrew » December 6th, 2015, 2:16 am

Norbert wrote:I think most people are unaware of the differences. (There aren't that many.) This probably means that people will use whatever is available as the default. The default for CusPop is 1.0 (unpacked). That's the same version apoplexy ships with. Also, versions 1.3 and 1.4 were added to popot.org 3.5 years after 1.0 was added. Also, maybe people who make a conscious choice prefer to pick the original/first version to really go old-school. Furthermore, since the beginning Total Pack came with lots of 1.0 executables and people used to just copy-paste a directory from there and then start editing. Finally, 1.0 is usually listed at the top, for example on popuw.com. I can imagine that some people just download the first ZIP they see.

Your reasoning is sound but when it comes to those that make a conscious choice, I don't see why they'd choose to go with 1.0 unless perhaps they want to exploit specific bugs it contains, or want to avoid certain bugs that affect only later versions. Can't think of any though right now that would make 1.0 the best choice for a modder who's aware of all the versions.

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Re: Download The Game

Postby Norbert » December 6th, 2015, 9:05 am

Andrew wrote:Can't think of any though right now that would make 1.0 the best choice for a modder who's aware of all the versions.


I've created two mods and made the conscious choice to go with 1.0 for both.
My reasoning: there are not enough relevant differences between the versions not to pick the very first release and go fully old-school, there are no showstopping bugs in 1.0, by default apoplexy launches DOSBox with "megahit", I didn't want to bother with the setup program and didn't want to have an additional executable (SETUP.EXE) in the packages. Running the PRINCE.EXE and then getting a "Please run SETUP." message; it's not that I'm lazy, but I just don't want to bother with what I feel is unnecessary.
Of course most of that is subjective and other people will have their own opinions.

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Re: Download The Game

Postby Andrew » December 6th, 2015, 6:58 pm

You can as well remove SETUP.EXE after running it once (or still include it for those who'd use it after running once so that message is not shown). Anyway I don't get this concept of treating 1.0 as the only "fully old-school" option, as if bug fixed versions by the same people released later were somehow less "old-school" or unworthy. Anyway, that's just my opinion on it and not worthy of an argument.

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Re: Download The Game

Postby Norbert » December 6th, 2015, 7:54 pm

Andrew wrote:somehow less "old-school"


Well, first of all, to get back to the basics: as I wrote before, I don't even think there are many differences between the versions. Most of the changes are barely noticeable. So, I don't get why this is a topic of discussion at all. You seem to like versions 1.3 and 1.4 for some reason. Maybe it's time I ask you to go into details and explain exactly why those appeal to you, and why you prefer them over 1.0. As I see it the only clear difference are the spike splash and sword clinging (woodblock versus metal) sound effects that changed in later versions. They tried to make them fancier and more realistic; apparently they felt that improvement was necessary. And then they could've released version 1.5 to add music, version 1.6 to move to 3D, and that could've continued until 2015. Actually, this is similar to what happened with PoP1 for SNES. They ported the game, decided they could improve upon it, and the end result is nice but less true to the original than, for example, the DOS version.

Andrew wrote:You can as well remove SETUP.EXE after running it once


Sure, but I didn't feel like doing that. Why would I if I can just use 1.0, which works fine with DOSBox.

Andrew wrote:[...] not worthy of an argument.


I'm mostly replying because I feel like defending my choice. You wrote you can't think of any reason "that would make 1.0 the best choice for a modder who's aware of all the versions". This seems to imply that picking a later version makes more sense if a person is aware of all versions, which in turn means I either don't know enough about the versions or I made a strange choice. In your latest post you seem to imply that I formulated a concept where later versions are "somehow [...] unworthy". That too makes me feel like I need to defend myself. I don't even have any strong feelings about all of this. Later versions are fine, not unworthy.

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Re: Download The Game

Postby Andrew » December 6th, 2015, 11:26 pm

My take on this is, why not the later version that I assume, and probably rightly so, to have bug fixes and more improvements possibly under the hood than you and I even know about, not until all versions are disassembled and completely analyzed? So yes, I do feel that using a later version makes a lot more sense, unless there's some show-stopper bug someone knows of that would perhaps interfere with a modder's vision. I know of none. I doubt anyone else does either. So at this point it's just a matter of convenience (don't want to run Setup), or laziness on the part of some to check out other versions (note I'm obviously not addressing you specifically here), or ignorance or whatever. The only use case I can make against a newer version is that perhaps someone might want to use 1.3 instead of 1.4 because they specifically want to try some of the obsolete audio and graphics options that were removed by the latter. Anyway, that's more of a player's choice than a modder's.

As far as moving on to 3D goes, you know that doesn't apply here so let's not over-dramatize the situation. What we have are versions that are basically bug fixed with a few improvements (that we know of), not bloatware with unwanted crap disguised as features. I'm sure Mechner and others quickly identified or were told about bugs in 1.0 and felt compelled to address them (wouldn't/haven't you with your own programs?), but nothing points to them tinkering with the game unnecessarily and leading to a worse experience for the end user (and that includes those sound effects you talked about). Nothing path-breaking was introduced after 1.0 for sure (all major game features had to obviously be frozen by then), but there's absolutely no reason to reject later versions either when compared to the first release. Personally at least, there's a damn good reason why I don't rush to install version 1.0 of any software until other guinea pigs have tested it and provided feedback based on which patches or newer versions have been released. To me, PoP 1.0 and 1.1 (and possibly 1.2 if ever located) are historical artefacts and nothing more. There's some curiosity in playing them occasionally and noting the differences from later versions, but that's about it. Give me 1.3 or 1.4 any day, as indeed the 2015 version of apoplexy for modding instead of an 8 year old one. ;)
Last edited by Andrew on December 6th, 2015, 11:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Download The Game

Postby Norbert » December 6th, 2015, 11:34 pm

Fair enough, everyone their own ideas and opinions. :)
Maybe one day we'll know if your assumption about big fixes is true.

SDLPoP (and the preceding disassembly) also started with version 1.0.
Maybe David had some interesting reasoning for picking it other than it simply being the first release.

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Re: Download The Game

Postby Andrew » December 6th, 2015, 11:41 pm

Norbert wrote:Fair enough, everyone their own ideas and opinions. :)

True, and I never wanted to spark off any sort of argument here.

Norbert wrote:Maybe one day we'll know if your assumption about big fixes is true.

That was a typo on my part, sorry (fixed now). I never meant that there are any "big" fixes for sure (though internally there could be), only that there are probably more "bug" fixes and algo improvements for example than we know about so far, since we have neither the sources nor a complete understanding of all the versions via 100% disassembly. One day hopefully SDLPoP will encompass all versions, as I mentioned in its thread.

Norbert wrote:SDLPoP (and the preceding disassembly) also started with version 1.0.
Maybe David had some interesting reasoning for picking it other than it simply being the first release.

No idea. He's also only disassembled IR yet for PoP 2, and as far as we know that was an illegally leaked pre-release so it's bound to be worse than 1.0. I'd love to see 1.0 or preferably 1.1 being tackled completely instead, but of course David's the only one so far who's interested and been able to do this, and he has only so much time to spare.

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Re: Download The Game

Postby David » December 11th, 2015, 12:34 pm

Norbert wrote:As I see it the only clear difference are the spike splash and sword clinging (woodblock versus metal) sound effects that changed in later versions.

Don't forget the level colors!


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